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JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Hi, everyone, and welcome to Jewish Trans Brazil-- Identity, Activism, and Music. My name is Jonathan Branfman, and it's my pleasure to welcome you. Thank you to our speakers, Assucena Assucena, and Lilyth Ester Grove, to our interpreter, Simone Harmath-De Lemos, and to our captioner, Diana Jacquet. Thank you also to Deborah Starr and Ayla Klein for your help in planning this event, and to our cosponsors, the Feminist, Gender, and Sexuality Studies Program, the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Studies Program, the Latin American Studies Program, and the Departments of Comparative Literature, English, Near Eastern Studies, and Romance Studies.
I'll begin by sharing our speakers' bios, and then posing questions to Assucena and Lilyth. Our interpreter will translate each question into Portuguese, and Lilyth will reply in English, and Assucena will reply in Portuguese, with Simone translating her answers. Audience members, you can share questions in the Q&A box, and we will answer some of those questions at the end.
So now for bios. Assucena Assucena is a singer and composer of the group As Bahias, with four released albums, two Brazilian Music Awards, and one Latin Grammy nomination. She currently directs a column of Vogue magazine, and in 2011, she undertook her studies on gender and sexuality at the College of History of the University of Sao Paulo. Lilyth Ester Grove is a Jewish anthropologist and academic originally from California, now living in Sao Paulo, Brazil. She studies the intersections of sexuality, gender, and Judaism with a focus on inclusion and culture. Her research has focused on Brazil, but she also looks holistically at the Jewish diaspora to envision acceptance of LGBTQI people in Jewish communities around the world.
And now for questions. First, in the US, the word "transgender" describes someone whose gender identity does not match the gender they were assigned at birth. In Brazil, many people also use the word "travesti." What is the difference between transgender and travesti identities? Oh, and Simone, please unmute.
SIMONE DE LEMOS: Thank you. I knew I was going to do this. So. [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: So the idea of i is a term that's very localized in Brazil. There are travestis around the world, particularly from a migration of travestis from Brazil to other parts, Italy-- Europe in general. There's also the term "travesti" in other Latin American countries, though it's not exactly the same.
First off, it's kind of like a third gender. It can be considered a third gender by certain people. Other folks can consider it a socioeconomic class related to the experience of being trans, particularly trans woman.
The simplest definition could be someone who was born in a designated male body, designated masculine body that transitions or performs a gender identity that's more associated with femininity. Or there are travestis that also identify as women, and travestis that are like, I am a travesti. I'm not a woman. So it's a complex identity, and I think something-- when we think about trans, trans came from the north. Trans came from the northern hemisphere and was adopted here as a catch-all term, because there was "travesti" and [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]-- "transsexual," sorry.
And so when we think of this differentiation and then we see a trans, trans is a recent identity that's been adopted. And people oftentimes-- for example, I call myself [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE], a trans woman travesti. To also reclaim this term, which is so heavily associated with a lower socioeconomic class-- prostitution and-- I'm trying to find the right word in English. [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]. And just being problematic and being the margin of society, in regular society, right? And Assucena, I think, has some stuff that another [INAUDIBLE].
SIMONE DE LEMOS: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So Assu says it's important to say that 90% of the trans women in Brazil, they go, they end up in compulsory prostitution.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So the two terms, "transgender" and "travesti" were, for the longest time, used to make the difference between the trans women who were prostitutes and the higher-class transgender women.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: But nowadays, in Brazil, the trans population makes it express to reappropriate, to take the term again-- "travesti"-- so that you can refer to a trans woman as a travesti or a [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE], transgender, so that you make everyone equal, both the transgender women who are in prostitution and everyone else in the community. Both terms are used together so that you resort to equality.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Cool. Thank you. Next question. What challenges do transgender and travesti people face in Brazil in general and specifically within Brazilian Jewish communities?
SIMONE DE LEMOS: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: So I can talk a little bit about my experience. Like, I'm not from Brazil, exactly. Well, I'm not-- I'm not from Brazil. I live in Brazil, but I've been living here for four years.
I've done my transition here as well. I don't know why. I just ended up doing that. So I can speak from a first-hand experience, obviously, with the intersections of a lot of privileges that I do carry.
Being trans in Brazil is very tough, very problem-- being trans in the world is very problematic and very tough. And particularly in Brazil, and particularly being a trans woman travesti, we deal with so much violence and so much aggression on a day-to-day basis. And especially when you consider travestis and trans women that are not able to hold jobs because they won't get hired, when you think about people who are on the streets getting attacked in a lot of places-- in Sao Paulo it's a very different scenario than a lot of other parts of Brazil.
So in Sao Paulo there's a lot of trans woman travestis that are able to have normal lives-- "normal lives, right? What we consider normal. But being able to participate in society, earn money, and also maintain some semblance of having a life, right? And in other parts of the country, and even in Sao Paulo itself, like Assucena said, there's really an emphasis and really a kind of a for-- a compulsory prostitution that's put onto us.
Even if you're not looking for it, it arrives at you. You know, I've been propositioned for sex work numerous times. And I'm not in those spaces procuring that. But it's just because the assumption of me being a trans woman-- it arrives to you.
So I think in terms of the Brazilian travesti trans community, there's a really big paradox that we have to deal with, that we have progressive laws that allow us to change our names, that allow us to use names that we use without having them legally changed. There's quotas in schools. In order for students to get access-- for trans students to get access, even though there's a lot of pushback, we walk down the street and we see billboards with trans models. We have a famous trans singer with us. So there's this contradiction that we see, but the majority of the trans population is really resorted-- they have to resort to a very marginalized existence.
And I think that's one of the biggest challenges, is getting that space in order to hold jobs that allow you financial security, in order to be able to walk down the street without getting yelled at, without getting attacked. And when we think about the Jewish community, we look at a community that's very closed off. I don't consider myself part of the Brazilian Jewish community. I consider myself part just because Assucena kind of brought me in. And even though I studied that-- the community, I don't see myself as necessarily frequenting these spaces.
But when you think about society and when you think about the Jewish community in Brazil being a very high, upper middle class, upper class space that segregates itself from a lot of the other parts of society, and then you think about this body, this trans body, this travesti body that is so associated with lower class prostitution, with all of these things that are bad, our spaces-- we don't have that space. We're not given that space. We have to fight for that space. Only now do I see being able to be called to these talks, being able to go to synagogue-- and this is a very recent thing. But Assucena can definitely explain a little bit more about her experience, because she grew up here.
SIMONE DE LEMOS: OK. [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So Assucena says that one of the biggest challenges is the cultural challenge, and with it, it's political and educational.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: During 15 years, we have a very progressive government in Brazil, which allowed us to organize social movements, such as the LGBTQ movement, the African descendant movement.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: But these 15 years were not enough for policies and educational policies to be created to better understand gender and sexuality and identities. And now we see a rise of the extreme right in Brazil, and a fight from the extreme right to deny us of everything that we fought for and that we got together these past 15 years.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: OK. [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: We conquered very little in this time and space. And we now see very aggressive prosecution from the far right government in Brazil, and day-to-day attacks and aggressions toward the LGBTQ community. And Assu wants to say that the community in Brazil who is being attacked and towards whom aggression are being the most widespread are the LGBTQ communities.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: The good news is that there's a lot of organization in the LGBTQ communities around the country nowadays, which counts with celebrities and pop stars and politicians who are part of the community and are fighting against these new attitudes brought by the far right government.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: With respect to the Jewish community in Brazil, the Jewish community is a mirror of what Brazilian community at large, Brazilian society at large is. And as such, because Brazilian society is very conservative, so is the Jewish community. And for the longest time, the Jewish community even hindered the entrance of LGBTQ or of transgender people into the synagogues in Brazil.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: It was only last year that the Jewish community in Brazil could actually change and create new policies, institutional policies which would allow the inclusion of LGBTQ communities into the Jewish communities. And as of today-- so this is only last year-- and as of today, they're actually pioneers in this sense.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Thank you. So now I'm going to ask the opposite question. What challenges do Jewish Brazilians face in general, and specifically within the LGBTQ community?
SIMONE DE LEMOS: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: So I think that when we look at the Jewish community in Brazil, we see a very privileged population, in majority. Obviously, speaking in stereotypes, I avoid saying that-- putting that stereotype that Jews are rich, right? Because I think that's a very well-established stereotype around the world. You know, it's like [INAUDIBLE]. It's like we don't only have that experience.
However, when we look at-- I was reading a study a while ago, when I was doing my dissertation, by Monica Grande, and we looked at the population-- the Jewish population in Brazil. And statistically they have a very similar-- I don't know if this is the correct term-- GDP. They have this very similar earning capacity, college rates, and literacy rate and life expectancy as some Nordic countries.
And when we look at Brazil in general, we see a population that's very divided, right? We see a population that's extremely segregated in terms of race, in terms of class, in terms of-- the word "scholarity," in terms of schooling. Sorry, I'm not being able to speak English tonight, everyone, even though it's my first language. And we see a population that historically has an interesting relationship with the whitening of Brazil. And Assucena can definitely talk more about this when she gets her position.
But the history of Jews in Brazil is one of being brought in by the Brazilian government to whiten the population, as well, because that Jews were the immigrants that nobody wanted, right? Historically, Jews were those immigrants. And so when we think about Jews being white enough, particularly from Europe, the [INAUDIBLE] Ashkenazim, coming into Europe, coming into Brazil because they weren't being accepted into the US, we see a history of a tight-knit community being formed.
And I think some of the difficulties that you might find, that Jewish Brazilians might find in terms of anti-Semitism, there is a strong anti-Semitism that does exist. I, in my research and my personal experiences, have not seen that. I haven't experienced that. I haven't seen people who have said, oh, I got beat up because I was Jewish, right? Different from the States, where I got attacked in the bar personally because I was Jewish, using a kippah.
So it's a different experience in that sense. But there are reports, there are stories that people have told me of personal experiences with these types of anti-Semitisms that might not arrive at a physical violence, but stereotypes, laughingstocks, giving these types of microaggressions, right? And then we think about the Jewish community-- or the-- I'm sorry, the LGBT community and the politics that might be connected with Israel and Palestine and anti-Zionism, there's a very classic conflation with being Jewish and being Zionist, right? So there's not sometimes space.
I was giving a talk one time for a Catholic group, and they brought up Israel. Personally, I am anti-Zionist. I don't talk about Israel that much because-- due to the diaspora, and I don't have a position different from anyone else who is living in this world about Israel. That's my personal position.
And I think that in this sense, there are those stereotypes that can be put in, and there are those exclusions that can be made. But at the same time, it's complicated to say that Jews are suffering in that sense, right? But that's just my personal perception of it.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So I think that the modern anti-Semitism intertwines with the creation of Brazil itself. It was during the Inquisition that many Jewish peoples were expelled from Portugal and its domains. And the way, the path for these Jewish was to come to the Americas, and with that, to come to Brazil. So I think that the anti-Semitism in Brazil came to be with Brazil, with early Brazil.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So the language even kept a scar from this early anti-Semitism, which is in the verb [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE], which means to hurt someone physically or mentally, repeatedly, almost as if it's torture. And the meaning of this verb comes from being Jewish and treating people in a bad way.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So anti-Semitism is actually in the genesis of Brazil, and it exists within a character that is-- I can't find the word. Assu, can you repeat the last part of the--
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: It comes out of a stereotype of what it means to be Jewish. I apologize for that.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So the challenge that the LGBTQ Jewish community faces in Brazil is to change this stereotype, the stereotype that there is only one type of Jewish person. The Jewish community is very plural, the same way Brazilian society is plural. So there are Jewish trans women. There are Jewish transgender. There are Jewish gay.
There are black Jewish. And there are all types of Jewish. And this is the challenge that we have, is to make everyone see that there is more than one type of Jewish person. We are a spectrum, as is Brazilian society.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Thank you. So, next question. We have discussed many of the challenges facing LGBTQ Jewish people. How are each of you addressing these challenges in your activism, art, and music?
SIMONE DE LEMOS: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: Well, since I'm not a musician, I can definitely talk about my activism, right? Maybe I'll sing for y'all afterwards. So it's interesting. Me being Jewish is not a huge part of my activism. Me being Jewish was a huge part of my activism, including I have a friend here that we were very much part-- assisting us tonight.
We were very much part of this Jewish activism, and learning on how our Jewish identity informs it. When I came to Brazil, and when I transitioned, aside from my research, which had led me to meet a lot of Jews and then lose contact with these Jews because I transitioned, then didn't work out in that sense. But my identity as a trans woman, as a travesti, was so much stronger.
And this kind of shows me how identities can overshadow other identities. It was much stronger. It was so much seen more, right? Me being Jewish was not a question.
First, I was a person from the United States. Then I was a travesti. And so there's all these layers that people see that inform my activism in a different way.
Currently, I am working with Assucena. She invited me to participate in this group that we're part of, called [INAUDIBLE], in which we're able to actually have this activism. We're actually able to create spaces and support other Jews to have their right to go into Jewish spaces, right? And I guess what I think when I do interact with Jewish spaces-- and I do interact with people.
We're going to take this specific to Jewish activism-- I like to remind people is that glass is an asset in the sense that there's a lot of plurality. Like, there are black Jews. There are Jews with disabilities. There are trans Jews. There are nonbinary Jews.
There are Jews who are converted. There's all types of Jews. And showing that to people-- because I tell people I'm Jewish, and they're like, where's your kippah? Because that image of a Jew is so strongly informed.
And then when we go to the Jewish community, we've got to remind the Jewish community there are black Jews, there are trans Jews, there are gay Jews. So that informs a lot of it. But I think that in terms of the activism that I live, in terms of the travesti community, my day-to-day activism that I try to participate in, try to live, me being Jewish does inform, because I am Jewish, and therefore that is what informs me in my life, in a lot of ways. But yeah, I think that's the most important part.
Assucena said it very well in pluralities, that we are all types of Jews. It's not just the orthodox Jews in Higienópolis, the part of the city that has a strong Jewish community. It's the Jews, all types of Jews. So.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: I am very proud to be trans and to be Jewish. And when I accepted, I made peace with the fact that I could be both. I learned this to be-- I politicized this to my life.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So I started using the influence that I have in the art world, in the politics world, and within the critics to try and make clear what this identity-- what this community is.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: And within the Jewish community, I have been fighting to have our trans people, transgender people to be accepted as also having the right to be religious, because within the Jewish community and many other religious communities, our identity, our trans identity, our gender identity is seen as being a sinful identity. So I have been fighting to find us more space, for more space within the religion.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So I am-- today, I am part of three different groups within the Jewish community in Brazil. One of them being the [INAUDIBLE] 35, which is a group who chose to study the Torah and the Talmud to prepare young people, Jewish and Brazil, to understand this identity.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: This particular group is associated with one of the biggest, largest Jewish groups in Brazil. So through it, we finally got legitimate space within the religion.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Thank you. So, my next question. The Jewish community in Sao Paulo is mainly Ashkenazi, so how does Jewish transgender identity intersect with Mizrachi and Sephardi identity?
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]?
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So it's interesting because the Ashkenazi Jewish went through what we call a [NON-ENGLISH] or the Jewish illuminism, which allowed them to become reformists and liberals and some to stay orthodox. But the other Jewish communities in Brazil did not undergo this [NON-ENGLISH]. So what happened is that these communities became more conservative and did not have access to these reformist and more liberal ideas.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So the Sephardim community is the most elitist and closed one in Brazil, because these were people who came from already very wealthy communities in their original countries. So we're thankful to be exposed to these other communities which are more liberal and more open so that they can inform the Sephardi and Mizrahi communities. But the Sephardim and the Mizrahim themselves are more closed and more traditional, more conservative.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Thank you. Lilyth, do you want to add anything, as well?
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: I'm not Mizrahim. I'm Ashkenazi. I'm an Ashkie girl. It is interesting thinking about these divisions that do the [INAUDIBLE]. I guess, if I can talk for a minute about the racialization and these identities related to that, because I think that's something interesting to bring up as a perspective for folks who are in the US and thinking about Brazil.
When I first moved to Brazil, it was very confusing, who's white, who's not white? What's these categorizations that exist, you know? So there's a dynamic that there is a differentiation between-- because in the States, there's a differentiation of who is Sephardim, who is Mizrahim, as not white, and then Ashkenazi as white. Not all Ashkenazi are white, of course. And so these categorizations become more fuzzy when we think about in Brazil.
Assucena thought I was Mizrahim at first. I was like, Assucena, [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE] Mizrahim. And I had to keep reminding her I'm not, because of these ideas of what a Jew looks like, right? Which is a whole 'nother issue.
So I think that, in just in terms of the groups and the differentiations, is a lot more based on tradition and on the subjects that Assu talked about, in terms of what do they follow? What communities do they inhabit, rather than the bodies that they inhabit? Which is a little different, I think, in the States, when we think about these identities as being very tied to a racialization.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: So if I can ask a follow-up question. It sounds like you're saying that in the US, Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, and Sephardi Jews are often viewed differently in racial terms. Particularly, depending on how you look, people may perceive you as white or nonwhite, whereas in Brazil, it sounds like you're saying that usually all of these groups are perceived as white, and therefore the main difference is religious custom or social networks of communities. Am I understanding correctly?
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: Yes, for the most part. I mean, of course, when we talk about these things, it's impossible to say all Jews are like this, because there's no such thing as-- there are Mizrahim Jews who would be considered white. But I think, from my experiences and from my understandings, the racialization is very different in Brazil, right? And so we think about the proximity to Blackness as being the key factor, right? And so there are people, for example, here in Brazil that are considered white that, in the States, would not be considered white due to a series of factors, as well. So I think just thinking about it in more open terms of community, traditions, I think, is a helpful way to also try to frame these differences that we see.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Cool. Thank you. So, next question. Historically in Europe, there was a stereotype of Jewish women called the "beautiful Jewess" that depicted Jewish women as kind of exotic and sexy, but in a dirty way. And I'm curious how does this historical stereotype shape Brazilian society or the experiences of Jewish, transgender, Brazilian women?
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: I think that this image that was brought-- this image of what a Jewish person is that was brought from Europe certainly informs what happens in Brazil. But I think that me being both Jewish and transgender, it's still very unclear to me what is harder. Do I get more problems because I am Jewish, or do I have more problems with people because I am trans? So it's still all very unclear to me whether there is a lot of anti-Semitism, and I am the victim of this, or if I'm more a victim of different things because I am a trans woman.
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: So, Assu, [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]? OK, cool. So I think this concept is really interesting, when we think about the history of Jews in Latin America. And I'm not a historian. I can't talk with authority on specific times or specific migration patterns, with that good textbook authority.
But I can definitely say the history of prostitution in Brazil-- of Jewish prostitution and human trafficking in Latin America, in Argentina, particularly, there's a history of that, of Jews being brought over from Eastern Europe into Latin America to do sex work, to do forced sex work. And so when we think about the sexualization of the Jewish body, and then we think about gender in Judaism-- and this is getting into a deeper subject of-- historically in Europe, Jewish men were not seen as men. They were seen as women, and then what did that make the Jewish women? Were they seen as men, or were they seen as another?
Going over-- very lightly over this subject, there's these questions of genders that have always permeated the Jewish body, right? Especially for being the other. And so I think it's interesting when we think about this concept of the [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]. And as, actually, an article that Jonathan wrote, which is a beautiful article-- you all should read-- about this hypermasculine body being masked by a hyperfeminine performance. Or this hypermasculinity being masked by a hyperfemininity.
And I think that's interesting when we tie that into a body of a trans experience, right? Of the travesti body, as we're seen as these hypermasculine hiding behind hyperfemininity, right? Especially in Brazil, we have a big history of modifying our bodies in the trans community, of industrial silicone, of plastic surgery. Of exaggerating these attributes, right?
In order to be successful doing sex work, because that's what men-- cis men-- want. They want these big busts. So when we think and we tie it all together, it's complex, and it's hard to think about my body as being a Jewish woman, as being a trans woman, and thinking about these historical stereotypes and looking at these images.
There's an image of Salome with a golden background that I think is beautiful. And I look at it and I see Assucena, and I see myself, and I see this image of the beautiful Jewess. And I think, how does that tie in with our bodies as trans women, as being hypersexualized, as well? Because you can't avoid the hypersexualization of a tran-- I could be talking about having a coffee and some guy will talk about his dick. So as a woman's experience, and then as a cis woman experience-- as a trans woman experience, it's a constant sexualization that I think ties in, so complicated that it's hard-- I don't have-- I can't explain it.
It's something that I need to think about. I probably will do a doctorate on it at some point, so, Jonathan, prepare yourself. I'll hit you up for that. But I think at the end of the day, we can draw a lot from these stereotypes, and we can think about how that informs also the way that we perform gender within the Jewish community and our Jewish bodies outside of the community.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE] I'm sorry.
[SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: It's curious that this also happened in Brazil, where there was, due to human trafficking, a large number of Jewish women were brought to Brazil to work as sex workers. And because of that, this idea, this image of a Jewish, beautiful woman, but dirty, was also created in Brazil, especially in Rio de Janeiro and in Sao Paulo. And there was even a term in the beginning of the 20th century to refer to these Jewish women who were brought to work as sex workers, which is [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE], which is a white, Jewish woman who's a sex worker.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Thank you. That is really interesting. And I think in North America we are just starting to become more aware of this history of human trafficking of Jewish women to Latin America. So on that note, the last question I have before we open it up to questions from the audience. What would you like North American Jews to better understand about Brazilian LGBTQ Jews?
SIMONE DE LEMOS: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: I think that we are just now in Brazil starting to institutionalize and have some institutional dignity within the Jewish community itself. In the US, I think that you have a longer history of this, and that the LGBTQ community within the Jewish community has more rights, and there's even same-sex marriage is allowed. The community in general has more access to more things within the Jewish community in the United States. So I think it would be very important for you to lend us your knowledge, your experience in how you did to get to this point, to get these rights.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So we're just now working on our first cultural manifestations, our first art manifestations, OUR first communities, and we still need a lot of bibliography. So we need people to translate the bibliography that you have in the United States. We need people to bring the knowledge-- the cultural knowledge, the institutional knowledge, and the political knowledge that you accumulated in the US for us in Brazil. So we need a lot of interchange, or exchanges with this community in the United States.
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: I think Assucena covered a lot of what I was going to say. But I do want to speak of my experience as a North American coming to Brazil, and the expectations and the thoughts that I had before coming here. I think what's really important is to understand that certain terms are not universal.
For example, the term "queer." I came to Brazil with the queer-- you know? In Brazil, I don't call myself queer, for example, anymore. Because aside from getting a lot of discussions and understanding the perspective, the identity doesn't have the same meaning here. The identity doesn't have the same potential that, for example, me calling myself travesti has here in this context.
And then when I go back to the States, I don't call myself travesti. I call myself a trans woman or a trans femme. Because this context of which we understand identity, I think, are really vital. And understanding that the differences that we have in the Brazilian Jewish community, or in the Brazilian Jewish LGBTQI [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]-- sorry, mixing all the languages right now-- community is that they're not necessarily-- we're not necessarily behind here in Brazil, right? It's a different history that led us to this point.
And so I saw that in a lot of my early conversations with other Jewish Brazilians. Like, ah, we're so far behind compared to the States. And I think that's a really dangerous place to be because that puts the States in this position of, we're so far ahead, we're so progressive. When in reality we know that the United States has very terrible policies in many aspects. And so understanding that, and then when we do create these moments, like Assucena said, of coming together to share experiences-- for example, my bibliography-- my library-- is mainly composed of US LGBT, queer, Jewish authors, because that's the resources we have.
But I don't take that as, like, that is the word. That is all that counts, right? And so I think it's really important that when folks from the northern hemisphere come to Latin America, we keep that mentality.
That was something that I definitely had people smack me around for that, because I come with "queer," and I come with all this-- well, we have this here. Why don't we have an LGBT synagogue here in Brazil, as well? And that's not necessarily the best thing, right? So I guess that's just my two cents on that piece.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Cool. Thank you. So that actually leads me to one more question that I'm going to ask before our audience asks questions. So for the audience, if you would like to ask a question, please put your question in the Q&A box, and please, if you can, type it in English. [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE].
So I will be able to understand your question better if it is in English. But so the last question I'm going to ask before turning to audience questions-- Lilyth, you started to bring this up. If North American LGBT people or North American Jews want to support the Brazilian LGBTQ community, how do we do that in a way that is not imperialist? How do we support what Brazilian LGBT Jews want to do without imposing a North American perspective?
SIMONE DE LEMOS: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
The colonial-- I don't know in English. But [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE].
SIMONE DE LEMOS: We have been talking a lot about-- in Brazil, we have been talking a lot about decolonization, which is-- we think, too, we have to create, to structure things in a way that reflects our context in Brazil, reflects our community in Brazil, instead of only importing things from outside. [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: In this sense, within the understanding that we are seeking to decolonize, that we are seeking to maybe import concepts and policies, but within our context, within the context we live in, we think that as long as there is understanding by both parts that the concepts or the bibliography that we bring from the United States, from North America, has to be adapted, has to fit the context of what we live in Brazil. So we decolonize it. As long as both sides understand this, that there might be changes to fit our context, we welcome all contributions.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Thank you. And Lilyth?
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: Yeah. I definitely think when we think about the imperialism, the academic imperialism-- what I'm going to say is problematic-- the queer imperialism that could occur-- these impositions of terms. Like, for example, we talked about earlier this idea of trans woman compared to travesti. "Trans woman" is not a term that is native to Brazil. It's a term that was taken here.
And we look at the hygenization. We look at the way that "trans woman" is like, oh, well, you're a trans woman, so you're OK. You can get a job. You can be treated like a person. And then we look at "travesti," and we see that as a native Brazilian term, and we see that as a term that is associated with so many different things.
We can understand that there's a problem, right? We understand that these terms-- "queer," for example, taken in a Brazilian context, is problematic. So I think one thing that's really important is understanding the lack-- not imposing these terms, and not assuming that they work here, because there are spaces that "queer" does work. That's because it was adopted by the people who chose to do that.
But here we have other terms. We have [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE], we have [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE], we have [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE], we have [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]. We have so many different terms that incorporate so many different identities that are really important, I think. Instead of-- for example, I don't translate those terms even when speaking English, because that's one way.
Learning what the term means, learning what the context means. Reading bibliography in Portuguese doesn't translate to English, because if you think about it, most articles, most theses are translated into English. I as a translator-- I also do translation-- I'm always translating word from Portuguese to English. So looking for these things, reading these things, and understanding-- also taking the position and understanding that it's a privilege that we get to write-- I got to write my dissertation in Brazil at Unicampi in English. I am very grateful for that because I don't write Portuguese. I don't write Portuguese formally enough to write a dissertation.
But if you think about that, how messed up that is-- because then when a Brazilian person will go to the States, they're obligated to write in English. So taking that all into account, keeping that in your mind when providing support, when providing access-- because that's the other thing, providing access-- calling people to speak at events, paying them, providing this access is super important, right? And if you think about the dollar compared to the [INAUDIBLE], it's great. The dollar's very strong right now.
So these are small things that we can do, you know? So I think that that's something that we can think about. And especially one more thing.
Thinking about, for example, if you're going to do a conference, why is everyone going to fly down to Brazil? Why don't we fly the people from Brazil to the States? Why don't we provide people with opportunities to get visas that are really hard to get right now because they have to-- so these little things that we can do to subvert the system, using the privilege from being from North America, from being from the States, to allow access for other folks here in Brazil and Latin America.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Thank you. So in the 15 minutes or so that we have left, we'll take audience questions. And the first one that I see is for Assucena about your musical career. So, Assucena, how has your experience as a Jewish transgender woman shaped your experience in the music industry?
SIMONE DE LEMOS: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So I think that my career as a musician started with-- along with my-- a little bit with my transition. So my first album was called [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE], Woman. And it was an inspirational experience, and for the phonographic industry, it was an innovation in politics, in work, in various aspects.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: So my songs, my lyrics, they're metaphorical. They're not straight. And in this sense, they were innovative.
So when we came out with our first album, because of this type of work, because of the lyrics being innovative, because of the lyrics being metaphorical, we got lots of interview because we were a novelty in the market. There were no trans singers, transgender singers in Brazil. And afterward, they were not straight-- they were not open about their identity. So we were the first ones to be open about this.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Thank you. And the next question I see is for Lilyth. So, Lilyth, you mentioned earlier that your activism used to emphasize Jewish identity, but now less so. What caused that shift, and would you like to recenter Jewishness again in your activism?
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: That's a very good question. I think my experience of being Jewish in the States was one of learning how my body was interpreted in different spaces, dealing with the anti-Semitism that did exist. I was very fortunate that I didn't experience a lot of very aggressive, physical anti-Semitisms, or just a couple of times in that sense. And I think that was what I understood as the starting point for my activism, the starting point for my fights to promote equality and to create space for myself and for other people in similar experiences, right?
And as I came to Brazil, that was something that was very present in my life, as well. I was very focused on trying to understand, why is there no LGBT synagogues? Why did the community not organize? What is happening? And as I transitioned and saw the experience of so many other travestis, and experiencing a lot of prejudice in this phase of early transition, my shift and my frustration changed in a way. Seeing the inhumanity of not being able to get a job, not being able to walk on the street, was more impactful on how I wanted to shape and focus my activism.
I think also becoming more aware of race dynamics and of Black and Indigenous struggles and class dynamics led it to become kind of like a nebulous of what I am trying to support and how to be supportive in different ways. And currently, in terms of my activism and why I participate, for example, with Assucena and these groups and why I think it's important is because it is very difficult to find space. Early on, I was like, my Jewish community is my friend Beth, is my Jews back home, is all of these specific things that I did not rely on the Jewish community here in Brazil for. So I'm like, I'm good.
But I see so many other Jews here in Brazil-- Black Jews, Indigenous Jews, trans Jews-- who suffer in such a way. So I want to be able to create that space. And given the privilege that I can go into a space and I am invited to do talks, and I'm invited, and I am the academic that has studied LGBT Jews in Brazil-- that is something that I do try to also use in my activism, because it's a privilege-- an enormous privilege-- to be given that and see how I can also use that to influence other discussions.
So maybe they call me to talk about LGBT Jew issues in a Jewish space, and that I'm able to bring in, let's talk about Black trans issues. Let's talk about sex work. Let's talk about class. Let's talk about how the fact that there's not a single Black person in this space besides the people who are working in service positions. So I try to do that.
I'm not perfect. I'm not a person who is, you know-- well, I'm pretty perfect. But I think that allowing myself these moments and seeing that-- how do we subvert that-- I think, is what I'm trying to shift a little bit to, as well.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Thank you. So I think what will be our last question, and I think it's a very good question to end on. A lot of our conversation has focused on challenges. But what are some of the successes for the Jewish trans community that you are both most proud of, and how do you celebrate or honor those successes?
SIMONE DE LEMOS: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: Well, I think that one of the victories is that we are starting to occupy space everywhere. Our occupation is shy, but it's historical, and we have had the support of rabbis, institutions, academics, politicians. And so you start to see many of us in many different places in society in Brazil now.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: I am part of, for example, the first political group, the first group whose objective is to take care of the demands and rights of the LGBTQ Jewish community in Brazil. So I am very proud of being part of this group. And this is a very important group because it will take care of the things that our community needs, the demands and the rights that we need to achieve.
ASSUCENA ASSUCENA: [SPEAKING BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE]
SIMONE DE LEMOS: And as far as celebration goes, we organized Shabbatot-- so "Shabba" in the plural-- that's what Assu taught me. What I think is important is that we create-- within a community, we do things in community like the Shabbatot because that's what I think being Jewish means-- one of the things that being Jewish means, that you create in a community. You work as a community.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Thank you. And, Lilyth, do you want to give a thought on this before we wrap?
LILYTH ESTER GROVE: I think that I personally-- I am very pleased to have people that I can invite to do Shabbat. I took them a time where I was not doing any Shabbat, I was not doing anything related to Jewish community here in Brazil. I'm lucky I have Jewish friends in the States that I'm able-- now, because we're in the pandemic, there's this strange, good thing that happened, that we're able to go into Zoom and do religious things on Zoom. And so, for example, I was able to participate in Rosh Hashanah with my good friend in New York, which we haven't done in ever-- or a very long time. Maybe we did at one time.
So having these moments with other trans Jews and talking about these things and getting to know Assucena as well, here in Brazil, is really beautiful for me. And it's really something that I never thought I would have living in Brazil. And I was like, no, OK, I'll have just my amigas travestis, just my travestis friends and, you know, the occasional cis person here and there.
But a Jewish trans woman and Jewish trans people and LGBT people that were in the same political and social and dynamic that I was looking for was something that I'm really happy about. And I celebrate that, even though I'm a very-- a bad Jew. I don't do a lot of religious things. I do like these moments, and I do appreciate Assucena always calling me to Shabbat and to all these things, you know? So it's one of those things that I think is beautiful from this moment that we are living right now.
JONATHAN BRANFMAN: Well, thank you. So to our audience, thank you so much for attending and for your questions. Thank you again to Assucena, Lilyth, Simone, and Diana. And have a wonderful night, everybody. [BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE].
Learn how Jewish transgender Brazilians are building visibility within São Paulo's straight Jewish spaces and Christian LGBTQ spaces. Latin Grammy-winning musician Assucena Assucena and her fellow artist and activist, Lilyth Ester Grove share their firsthand insights on trans Jewish Brazilian struggles and successes today. Moderated by Jonathan Branfman, Jewish studies and English studies. Portuguese-English translation provided by Simone de Lemos, romance studies.
